Hi,

I'm preparing to lay about 240 sqft of 3/4" solid pre-finished Brazilian Cherry in my entry, breakfast nook, and kitchen. I am stapling down over plywood subfloor. My sketch of the area is at the end of this post, if I got the technology stuff right...

Those of you who are experienced in planning such things, would you please look over my sketch and help me make a few key decisions?

1. Noting that on the RHS of my layout is a top stair that I will be using stair nosing on, does it make more sense to start my install on the far left wall and lay left to right across the entire area? Or should I start in the passage between the entry and the nook, and use a reversal, working out in both directions? Or should I start with a reversal very near to the stairs to ensure the right overhang at the stair nosing, and lay the rest right-to-left? My gut tells me I should work from the middle outward, but I have no real experience to trust...

2. I have already verified that my dishwasher can be removed over 3/4" flooring if I only install it a couple inches into the opening. Is it customary to install wood in the entire depth of the range opening? Can the oven heat spell problems for the wood under it?

3. The light green areas around the wood are carpet. After the wood goes in I intend to have new carpet installed and tucked/rolled neat (no molding, no nasty metal bars) against the wood, if possible. Will it be possible to make the cut ends of planks (e.g. at hallway to office, and facing dining room) look clean where they meet the carpet? Do I neet to sand or bevel or finish them somehow, so they don't splinter or look too blunt?

4. Same question, but for the 45 degree line near the top of the stairs? Will this look OK, or is ending planks with an angled cut a major aesthetic no-no? My wife and I really struggled with a way to put wood in the high-traffic entry while keeping the carpet we love (don't hate us!) in the living room. This funny shape is the best we could think of, and the 45 parallels the fireplace opposite it in the LR... Better ideas are welcome!

Thanks in advance for the advice!

- Garrett in San Diego

Garrett,
Nice diagram. Let's see if I can help. 1st problem, where to start?
You want to be able to engage the groove of the stair nosing with the tongue from a full board. So you need to measure the depth of the stair nose section that is 3/4" thick. It's usually 2" and the thicker part is typically another 1&1/4" for a total of 3&1/4" in width. So, from the edge of the step, measure back 2" and that's where you want the last board to end before the nosing is installed. Now you want to establish a straight line and reference mark. It appears you have an outside wall at the kitchen, nook and dining room; use that to measure off of. Measure out 12' or 16' or any amount that takes you into the entry from the outside wall in the nook. Do the same from the outside wall in the dining room using the same measurement. Now chalk a line or use your laser to get a straight line running from the entry to the dining room. With me so far. This is your reference line and should be parallell to the outside wall. Now measure over to that 2" mark you made earlier by the stair nose and divide that measurement by the width of your flooring. Example: 100"divided by 3.25"=30.77 boards. So now you want the flooring to end with full boards against the carpet also but that can adjusted a few inches one way or another. Lets say it takes about 15 rows of boards (15x3.25=48.75) to go from the last row of wood where the carpet begins in the living room to your 2" mark by the stairs. So now measure and mark 48.75" from your 2" mark at the stairs. Measure the distance from your reference line to the mark you just made. 100"-48.75=51.25". Now make a mark 51.25" away from each end of your reference line toward the living room and snap a line between those two points and THAT is your starting point. It will be the last board next to the carpet with a line that is straight and parallell to the outside wall. Lay the tongue side against the line and lay the flooring toward your kitchen/nook. When finished, use a slip tongue to reverse directions toward the stairs. The 45 is fine but you may want to clip that 90 corner by the dining room with a smaller 45. The range won't hurt the wood floor. If it is free standing and not a built in, install the wood under it. In the office doorway where the floor terminates to carpet, turn a board to end. It's called a header. Do the same at the dining room and your 45 in the living room; it finishes your floor off with a factory edge. I hope I explained this ok. It is easier to show someone than write it down!

"Lay the tongue side against the line and lay the flooring toward your kitchen/nook." Sorry! Should say "Lay the GROOVE side against the line"

Hi Gary,

First off, thanks for the detailed and thoughtful reply! I've been reading this forum daily for a couple weeks trying to soak up as much knowledge as I can for my first wood floor project, and I must say I am in awe that there are guys like you who do this for a living and yet are still interested in helping others enough to devote so much time to their questions. I know I'm not a paying customer but I hope you are rewarded with great business karma!

I think I understood everything you said... I'll be starting with the first full row of planks from entry to dining room after establishing a reference line parallel to my outside wall, and appropriately spaced from my top stair to properly position the nosing. Makes sense to me. Of course it raises a few more questions...

- The slip tongue for reversing the direction towards the stairs... is this something I need to buy from my flooring dealer, or can I fabricate one from any hardwood species on my table saw?

- The starting row will be very prominent in my entry. Do I have to face-nail it, or can I glue it down to the plywood?

- I understand about the header where I have many boards terminating. I can get a good fit at the office and the dining room by mating with T&Gs at the board ends. But how about along the 45? Those angled cuts will not have a tongue or groove, how do I get a good flush connection with the header there? Glue? Can I router a groove after they are laid down (*gulp*)?

- Is it better to cut my 45 ends on the miter saw and lay them carefully in alignment, or lay boards longer than the final line and cut with circular saw (*gulp*) afterwards?

- As I lay right-to-left into the kitchen, I will have to "back in" several rows of boards in the refrigerator space. Is this done with another slip tongue and direction reversal? Or do I just rack the rows going through the doorways in advance, mark where the last board behind the fridge should go, face-nail it, and lay right-to-left in there also?

- Similarly, will I have any trouble keeping my rows aligned when the layout breaks up to go around the refrigerator wall? In other words, are there any tricks for ensuring that when the long rows resume in the kitchen, I won't have any gaps due to "drift" in the stackup of the boards going through the doorways?

- Finally, I have a question about how to handle the front door. My flooring dealer sold me a length of baby threshold to butt against the metal threshold of my front door while allowing an expansion gap for the ends of my flooring. My question is - how do I trim the ends of the baby threshold? It penetrates 2-1/8" into the room, do I just square the ends between my door casing and leave it blunt? Do I undercut my casing to allow the threshold to go even wider? It's hard for me to visualize an elegant solution here...

Thanks again for the encouragement!

- Garrett in San Diego

-Slip tongue/spline can be bought. Check to see if it fits your flooring. If not, you can make your own.
-The starter row should have backer blocks temporarily installed behind it which will enable you to toe nail that first row. When you change directions and install the spline, toe nail through that. Glue if you want; won't hurt.
-Different ways to skin a cat! My way would be to install 45 header first with tongue in, facing flooring. Then cut miters individually and rout a groove in 45 miter board using a router table. Check for fit first Install 45 header same as starter course.
-Cuts miters first to check fit. Don't use circular saw, can scratch floor and cause chipping along cut.
-Lay floor left to right, not right to left except when needing to engage flooring tongue and groove with header board.
-For refer hole, use slip tongue again to reverse directions.
-Measure carefully; there's no tricks. Use equal air pressure on nailer for all install. when past refer wall on both sides, snap chaulk line and use long, straight boards along that line. Backfill into refer hole by reversing direction.
-I prefer reducers to baby thresholds against exterior tresholds. If you can, you could butt the floor tight to your threshold. Flooring doesn't expand in length, only in width. I'm probably breaking some "rule" here but I've done this for 24 yrs. and NEVER had a problem. Looks clean!

Gary did a great job explaining, not many here are able to so clearly explain the process, he has the gift. I was going to clarify the starter row question. When starting out in "space", and you need to secure the groove side of the board so you can bling nail, use short pieces of cutoff, engaged into the groove, and put your nails in those. Smack these pieces sideways to remove them, rather then pry them up. I use a couple-three finish nails from my gun to hold them in place .

Update:

Brought our wood home a couple weeks ago, opened several boxes and laid out some of the prefinished BC, stuff looks fantastic. Loved it so much we realized we were nuts to terminate it before the dining room, who wants carpet in the dining room anyway? Our original reasoning was the fear of paw-noise directly above our bedroom, but we'll take beautiful house over beautysleep, so we bought another 150 sqft and below is my revised layout, also updated to reflect the wisdom I have gotten from my gurus here on the forum.



I'm going against the joists, which are the fuzzy double horiz lines. So the darker row is my starter, I will lay towards the kitchen/DR, and will change directions to finish to the top of the stairs, and the fridge area. I will also use a header to stabilize the row ends facing the office. So far so good?

New questions:

1. How does one face-nail the last row under a cabinet toekick? Can't swing a hammer in there. Use a finish nailer at an angle?

2. What's the ideal finish nailer size for face-nailing -- 15GA or 16GA? Any issues with splitting hard stuff like BC?

3. Did I understand right that I can blind nail through the slip tongue on the groove side of my starter row? This won't blow the slip tongue to bits? Should I glue it in the groove first?

4. The last two joists of my dining room are very low, the plywood drops just over 1/2" at the exterior wall. I have leveled it nicely using several tapered layers of shingles and felt, but is 1/2" too much non-wood under the flooring? Will it cause planks to move underfoot? And will a 2" staple get enough purchase in the subfloor after going through 1/2" of the 3/4" flooring and then 1/2" of shingles? At 45 degrees it might only penetrate the subfloor 3/8" or so, right? Can I remedy this by hand-nailing with longer nails at this end of the rows?

Sorry for the novice nature of my questions... I'm very anal and prefer to research the hell out of something before I screw it up and become another bonehead DIY story you guys get to laugh about! It still could happen, but it won't be for me not asking enough questions...

Thanks!
- Garrett in San Diego

I've done a fair amount of th eprefinished BC, and I haven't been happy with what a air nailer does to thesurface of the floor. It tend to splinter the surface a bit; and at times won't set the nail, due I guess to the density of the wood. I use a finish nail as a drill bit, cut off the head and chuck it in there. No worries about breaking or getting the right size. In some area's I have used a second slightly larger bit to countersink the nail head. (Yes, a drill bit for that one). As far as the build up goes, consider this, that when you lay solid wood over 3/4 plywood on slab, you use 1 1/2" fasteners.

Hi Garrett,
Again nice diagram!
1) Under cab. toekicks I glue the flooring down and wedge it in place. I use Liquid Nails because it's convenient. Any construction adhesive or flooring adhesive will do.
2) SK is correct that using an air finish gun with prefinished braz cherry can cause the surface to splinter. If you want to try one, use a 15 gauge 2" nail. Bostich and Senco are my favs.
3) Glue the slip tongue using yellow glue. Cleanup residue promptly before glue dries. Use a scrap piece of flooring next to where your are toenailing to stabilize the slip tongue and help keep it from moving. Wait till glue is dry before nailing. Make sure tongue is thoroughly seated into groove.
4) I feel a flat subfloor is important so the leveling was needed. If you want to hand nail these areas with longer nails, fine. I would try to hit the floor joists if your going to use longer nails. You will need to predrill that BC. I'm not sure I would have used shingles to fur up 1/2". They're great but if you use more than three layers, you should use a wood product with gluing, nailing, and sanding different thicknesses. Is it really a 1/2" drop off? Better to recheck!

I would not use a header in front of the front door. Instead, use a thin reducer or butt the floor tight to exterior threshold. Flooring doesn't expand in length so you don't need an expansion gap here. Good luck!

While waiting for my MIIIFS to arrive, I'm trying to think through my strategy for nailing, and I have yet more dumb questions.

Referring to my layout diagram above, would the groove-side of my starter row where it meets the living room carpet be vulnerable to damage since it is not solid? And would I have to resort to face-nailing it (below)?



I'd really prefer not to face-nail in such a prominent area. Would my plan work better if I moved the starter row a couple rows towards the kitchen, used slip tongue the entire length of the room, and had a couple rows with tongues facing my carpet? That way I could blind nail the last row, right? Is it OK to have a tongue sticking out where the hardwood borders the carpet, or will that leave a visible gap at the carpet tuck? How about if I rip off most of the tongue, would I still be able to nail it with the MIIIFS?



Your recommendations are appreciated.

Thanks,
Garrett in San Diego

You're gonna have to tell me how you make those great diagrams!
As to your floor, yes the groove side would be vunerable to damage; probably not from normal use but if something hit it just right or enough weight was applied, the top of the board could crack and break. So, your plan makes sense to start a row back. It will mean installing slip tongue the entire length of your floor but you know that. Here's how to avoid face nailing your starter course. Remember those backer blocks? Temporarily install them as SK told you, with the tongue in the groove. Place them every two feet or so and on the joints. You can use some construction adhesive on the bottom of the groove side of your starter course. You don't have to but you can. Of course you cannot have paper/felt where you glue. Leave your backer blocks in place until your install is nearly done in that direction. Using SK's recommendation, remove backer blocks and install your spline/slip tongue. Now you can toe nail through the spline with either your M111 FS or finish nailer. Keep the spline aligned by using a scrap of flooring with the groove set into the spline next to where you are nailing. This will secure the front and the back of your starter course without face nailing as per your diagram. You should remove the tongue from the last row where it meets carpet or you will not be able to tuck the carpet without the tongue showing. So simply rip it off. You can still blind nail/toe nail the last row with the M111 FS; you don't need the tongue to do that. you can do the same for your 45 turned header. Rip the tongue off and install a spline the length of the header facing in toward the flooring. Groove your mitered floor boards on either a router table (my prefered method) or use a router with a grooving bit. Viola'

You can also stay with the top diagram, and use the finish nailer into the groove, along the carpet transition, to hide the fastener.

Or you can plan a ripped board across the doorway.

Call me a goofball,but I would start that job from the leftside of the diagram. Several reasons.
1. You are gonna have to use splines anyway.
2.You will be working away from toekicks instead of toward.(MUCH EASIER)
3.You have no wall line you have to meet at the living room. If the material is an inch this way or that,it wont matter much.
4. You can nail from left to right all the way to the angled header. And you can easily use your stapler to blind nail the longest part of that header.
5.It seems the fastest and least troublesome way to do it.


I would simply strike a control line down the longest part of the job. With that done,you will have a constant reference point to check waht you are doing as you nail toward that line. Now that I think about it,I would measure back from the DR wall and the BN wall. That would be a great reference line for the whole job.

That is how I would do it,anyway.

By the way. I did not see this mentioned above,but I can be a sloppy reader sometimes.

Make good and dang sure that you set aside nice,straight stuff for your headers.

p.s. Of the two diagrams showing carpet meeting plank edge. Neither would be acceptable. I rip the board clean and make a roundover with a router. It is easy to touch that up to match.

Chuck,

Thanks for the new perspective on the layout strategy. I had first considered starting at the exterior wall but I didn't feel confident that my stair nosing would land where it needed to be after 18 feet of flooring. The "inch this way or that" wouldn't matter to my carpet line, but the stair nose seemed less forgiving of my layout "growing" from the plan. Can I count on exactly 3" per row all the way across my floor, or will it vary depending on humidity, how hard I swing the mallet, etc?

I do like your suggestion of rounding over the carpet border. This is a BR-111 pre-finished floor with Aluminum Oxide-type finish. What would I use to touch up the cut edge (I'm thinking of wipe-on poly)? Would it blend well enough to the factory face? Granted, we're talking about a fraction of an inch that will be mostly covered by fuzzy stuff... does it even matter?

- Garrett