Hi Guys,New to the forum and have a question.I'm a professional floor covering installer.Strictly wood and laminate for the last 6+ years.Been in floor covering for most of my life.On/off from 15 - 21 and since 21(I'll be 41 in aug).I installed engineered paralel to the joists(per ok via phone by manufacturer tech)As we were prepping the floor(ALL joints in subfloor sanded,PERIOD,1st step of EVERY job along with full scrape,sweep,countersink all protruding fasteners),I called the distributor and talked with the installation tech and he said it was preferable to go across the joists but,with an engineered,it would be fine to go either way.Have installed several houses this way since then due to ease of installation.The pruducts were Pre-finished Handscraped and antiqued.Running paralel,there are only 2 short 45 degree headers.Running perpindicular,The ENTIRE job is working out of headers on one if not both sides.Not very many different size boards to work with(each box of handscraped has 5 6'ers,1 4' and 1 2')Not a very good pattern for 50 feet from front of house to back.The only real option is to cut,hand bevel and stain to match EVERY board butting the headers.Can't really use ANY factory ends against headers if some are cut because you cant match the factory ends well enougs(IMO)to mix the two.Should be all factory or all hand-done.OK,you want it ,you got it.I'll charge accordingly.Problem is this is new construction,tract homes subbed from large shop with DELEGATED RATES.Sorry but,at $1.85 ft,NOT HAPPENING.Homeowner had independant inspector come out and say my job was sub-standard due to the direction.Oh yeah,it also runs the long way with the room.THIS ABSOLUTELY KILLS ME!I would NEVER do this without an ok from the manufacturer.I am NOT a hacker.I refuse to go over high moisture or wavy floors.Well,I dO stretch the standards on high/low because i'de never work in these houses otherwise(except to fix their shoddy frameing almost daily).Any thoughts or input?And NO,NEVER with a solid. Thanks,Jerry Heavenly Floors Inc

Never proceed on a phone conversation!!! BIG MISTAKE!!! Have the manufacturer send you a FAX with there letterhead stating that it is OK, That keeps all your job documentation, intact.

I wouldn't get out of bed for $1.85 a foot, and I'm in North Mexico, where wages and compensation have been staggnant or actually dropping for 30 years.

The salesman has a big role here in the finger pointing!!! The sales staff needs to know installation specs, like the back of their hand, unless they are the type that will tell the clients what they want to hear, and not the truth.

You need to be the professional, by putting your foot down to oversold installations.


I have never lost money, on a job I didn't do.

So,what do you think about the wrong direction problem?Distributor still says it wont be a problem.Homeowner wants it changed because it"doesn't look like the model home".Biggest pisser is,I'm the guy that gets told all the time "you're just being too picky" or "I think he just didn't want to work today".ALWAYS do it by the book.CMA! I'm probably the only guy out of the shop who's never bought a job.I've never lost money on a job.I've walked away from many do to sub-standard conditions but,if I do it,it's done right.Looks like maybe my 1st.We'll see.Gotta go to work now,I'll be back this eve.Thanks,Jerry

OK, what is the original claim, that caused the floor to be inspected? Does the fact that the flooring is not run across the joist, have any impact on what the original claim was?

What exactly doesn't look like the model home?

Don't know what brought the whole thing around.I think just the homeowner saying"I don't like it.It doesn't look like the model and the instructions say..."Guess what, the instructions also say to not use pieces less than 12 inches long and to stagger joints by at least 20 inches.IT'S NOT POSSIBLE.This product is not the one I thought it was with mostly 6 footers.Just the opposite.Mostly shorter.I'll take pics tomorrow.Was gonna send copy of the layout but,saw that you have to put them (pics)somewhere online and link to them.?Never done it.The model house does run the opposite direction.Here's the thing.About a year ago(probably the 1st or 2nd house we did after the model)I called the distributor from a house we were doing that day and recieved the A OK to install ENGINEERED parallel to the joists.I then got an A OK from the assistant jobsite super to do so.Since then,I've done maybe 6-10 houses that way.The last two being within last month.about 1-1/2 wks ago,one of the last 2 homeowners complained about it.Convinced them it's ok and they accepted.Now,the last one is complaining and I was asked to replace it tomorrow.Gotta do it.Subbed outta this POS for 12-1/2 years.Lots of things I'm unhappy with but,it pays my bills and as i have a wife who's never worked and 2 kids well,you know.Too many from other countries around here to get any more $.Matter of fact,8-9 years ago,we were getting $2.Then they got us down to $1.85.Then some projects,$1.80.Last couple of weeks,taken out jobs at $1.75!!My costs have done nothing but gone up,up,up.Their reasoning,"we've had to bid the job tighter to get the work" and "the guys out of the north end are willing to do it for $1.75".My reply was "I GUARANTEE I CAN FIND PEOPLE TO REPLACE EVERY PERSON IN THIS COMPANY FOR LESS MONEY THAN THEY ARE BEING PAID.INCLUDING YOU!Does that mean it would be right?If you have to bid a job for a little less,why does it have to come out of my a**?I work for mine.I'm not just suckin profit off everyone else.Sorry,off topic.I'll be replaceing the job tomorrow.Was told that this will go before the review commitee(Superfloors employees of course) to decide who pays.Bet I can guess .Thought I did everything I could to CMA.Wouldn't put it in otherwise.ALWAYS go by manufacturers specs.Eatin me up guys,eatin me up.Had my own business since 89 and this is a first.F me runnin! Sorry to vent and get off topic guys.I've actually read a LOT of your posts in the past and there a few of you I respect because I can tell you are professional and know what by the things you say.Just can't BS your way through some things.I'm pretty much a stickler on just about everything.I even hand nail with cleats when the finish nailer doesn't fit on the finish rows(THAT is what the angle on the back of the mallet is for IMO)I do use staples NOW due to the cost difference(1/2) but,I broke in on powernails and I keep a stock for hand-nailing and still use the manual in some areas like approaching sliding glass doors and exterior doors.Gets an extra row or two over the M III FS.Pretty much no face nails allowed except where trim will cover. BRB Jerry

All I can say is in the future, make sure every job ticket has specific instructions signed by a person of authority (salesperson, jobsite super, home owner, etc.) that include flooring direction and any unusual or specific requests. That way, if this sorta thing ever comes up again, you can point to the job order and say you were just following instructions. These sorts of things are why some of us have chosen to be self employed and not sub to a labor shop. I do sub to general contractors as a flooring contractor but supply and specify all my own contracts and materials. The more people "in the loop", it seems like there's more chance of miscommunication, which is always a problem when subbing labor. Hope it works out ok in the end.

Your an exploited employeed, not a subcontractor.... Don't get me started!!!

Sometimes I hate being so anal about things.I can't help it,that's me.I tend to pick everything apart and am rarely satisfied.I think one of the problems here is the tech from the distributor is not backing up the phone call.Guess what I just made copies of ? #1. The work order with date(8-31-06) and material,highlighted #2 Copy of techs business card with cell # highlighted #3 Copy of my cell=phone bill, WITH HIS # HIGHLIGHTED !! So what< I called and asked if this can be done,you said no and I hung up and did it anyway? Don't think so.If there is one thing for sure,I'm not a liar.My shop knows this.I have caught them in lies before and I have told them that have/will NEVER lie to them and would appreciate the same.Tell me what I don't want to hear,just don't lie to me.We can not possibly have a good business relationship if we can't trust each other.Anyways,Will turn copies in tomorrow am when I pick up the material for the replacement.NOPE no acclimation.Never do.(not on their jobs but ALWAYS on my privates).If I leave material on-site,my responsibility.These guys are big enough that the distribs BEND the rules for them.I remember last summer when they were wearing their shirts that said TEAM 10 on them.That means $10 mil a month!! YA! Thanks for the time guys.

Funny you should say that.Every time I pick up a check,I have to sign a paper stateing I'm NOT an employee.I agree though.If YOU tell ME What,where when and now how and YOU tell ME how much,E M P L O Y E E. P.S. What do ya think of my back of the mallet idea? Been doing it since day one.With the angle and square edge,I can sink the cleats on finish rows to where I just need one little swack with the nail set. Jerry

The bigger the organization, the crappier they treat the labor. I once questioned one of the very large flooring contractors that does floors for many of the tract developers. I went there to see how they paid and what their "rules" were. They had the deck stacked all in their favor. They made the "sub" responsible for everything, paid very low (IMO), and were basically a**holes. I never went back.

I think that's where I work.LOL Got er done today.What a buncha IDIOTS.Met the HO today.They r from India.Must have been his wife or father speaking fpor him,I didn't ask.After showing him the pros/cons,he says "I wish I would have been here,I would have left it ok like it was".He just finished dental school in Philly.Visited the model once and went back to philly.WHOLE PROBLEM, It didn't look like the model.YA,now it does and look how many boards line up.Thats what you get with fixed length boards and the entire job is working out of headers.Majority of wood is 2 footers.Just no way to avoid it.when theres 60 - 80 sq ft dumped out on the floor and it's almost all 2 footers left and I'm working out of a header,guess whats gonna happen.HO was within 3 ft of me from about 12:30-5.Sheesh leet me work already.As he's watchin me work( and tryin to help)he sees the prob with fixed length and asks "why don't they make it different sizes"?How the hell do I know I said with a smile.They make this stuff in China, and I don't speak chinese.All got a good chuckle.Bottom line is ,this would not have happened if I had gotten a chance to talk to customer first.If you don't know how to do my job,you can't very well stick up for me can you? Builder was PISSED.His bosses(corporate) overrode his decision which was "BS were not changing it".Both supers apologized(with hands in the air)more than once as soon as I got there and both said how BEAUTIFUL it was.Got a quickie way for me to post pics? Believe me,THIS IS NOT OVER.I will be making up my bill and turning it in tomorrow AM. Jerry

When they give you grief, remind them of that little paper you sign each week calling you unemployeed.

When you do decide you have had enough, Make a copy of their last check to you, and then go file unemployement benefits. They will do a determination of employement, which you answer honestly, and the shat will hit the fan!!

Just going over the photos I took today.Unfortunately ,my guys beat me there this morning.I purposely did not send them home with any tools yesterday so they couldn't start without me.I wanted pics of the whole job.They only got a little out before I got there(had a couple tools in their car so thought they would try to surprise me and have it half out by the time I got there)but,I really wanted pics of that part too.No biggie.What a difference.IMO WAAAY nicer looking the first time around.To me,now looks chopped up and confusing.Too busy. I could see the taste of s*** on HO's face.Woops,DID I PUT THAT THERE ? They took my name & # cuz they want to add the fam rm after they move in.Builder and shop upgrade price too much (that's where they REALLY get em).ANOTHER blunder.Coulda been a stack-on.NOW,lace-in.?Not a good option with this stuff. Jerry

$1.85 a ft.? I wish. I get $1.35 from the flooring company I sub for.I've been installing for them since 1987 or 20 tears.Now, they can get illeagal immigrant subs to do it for $1.25 and as a result , I dont get as much work because I'm a dime more.Thats some crap huh?AND we have to pay 50.00 per bucket of glue.This company has most of the big builders and a lot of custom ones they provide flooring for.I cant get enough volume to keep my crew busy any where else.What can I do?I have a family to take care of.But, thats what I do....lay wood.