Ok, this for all you regulars. The guys like Perry, Chuck, KLS, Kevin, SK, JC, Ray, Ken and others.

Ever notice how some newbies come on the board with a problem or a complaint about their floors and we attempt to help and address their problem. We explain industry standards, right way vs the wrong way of doing things, try to find solutions and make suggestions. Most of the folks really appreciate our expertise and FREE professional advice. But what about those few that are so pissed about what has happened that they want to argue with us over it, like we are the ones to blame. We simply state the facts (truth) then they become almost hostile because they didn't get the answer they wanted. I don't know about you but I'm getting a little tired of the few that act like we owe it to them to solve their problems in a manner that is easy on them, like this is some sort of emotional therapy board or something. There's gotta be a nice way of dealing with them. I suppose we could just ignore them but part of me wants to tell them, "Look you, we're here trying to help you, if we can, and your kicking us in the teeth, so to speak. So shape up or get lost."

I guess I just get annoyed at the few that don't appreciate what we're doing for them. And I needed to gripe about it. OK, bitchin' session is over. Thanks for lettin' me sound off.

HERE, HERE, my good man. So Gary, what's the deeper issue here? Tell us how you really feel.

I've noticed that your most recent posts were a little short, like the guy with the gray crap under his table. For example (Iwas reading your mind) "Well, Jerkweed! you ain't gonna wanna hear this, but cowboy up and loosen your pathetic death grip on your wallet and let a real man who really knows what the heck he's looking at fix you up with a refin. job any tightwad would be proud of." (Are you laughing yet? Just tryin to cheer you up ) Was I close?

Wife reading over my shoulder and calling me naughty. Oh well.

I really hope Ken posts this as a sticky for newbie, DIY, and 'Harry homeowner" contributers who are probably mistaking this board for the Dr. Laura site.

Take Care Gary and remember ... WE LOVE YOU, MAN!!

Thanks Will,

You're always a breath of fresh air! But I had been reading posts from some folks that want to blame everyone and everything but themselves for they're choices. Example: My floors are dented but my neighbors aren't. I must have bad wood! OR: There are so many shorts, this can't be right. 12" boards are scrap! OR: I'm buying used LAMINATE (what's the name of this forum!) floors from a dept. store. Tell me how to install them! OR: The house I am buying has floors that are worn out under where the table was. Tell me how to fix them myself so I don't have to spend any money. OH! I need to hire a pro? Maybe they're not that bad after all.

I guess my point is we pros know how to fix it and tell them when they are in over their heads. Do they want to hear it? Sometimes, NO. Because that means they gotta spend money. Well, sorry, but it wasn't me that gave you that bad advice or had you buy from LL or any number of things.

What happened to personal responsibility in this country? Everyone is looking for a scapegoat, someone to pin it on but themselves. So, let this be a message to you folks who post your problems here (and this is me speaking, not Ken, the message board owner). Realize we pros are giving you our combined years of experience and expertise. You can choose not to follow our advice but don't argue with us about what we know to be true. While we may disagree professionally about how to resolve a problem or handle an install, we are all highly knowledgable in our craft and only offer our opinions as an option for you to follow. If you don't like them, then don't follow them but please refrain from telling us why you think our opinions aren't valid or don't apply in your case. We have nothing to gain or lose by offering our advice. Take it or leave it but don't argue with it.

You can lead some people to water.......but you can't make em think.

You have a pretty good way with words. Write a book before it's too late like ol John Bridge did. I'll buy a copy, course it will have to be autographed .

Guys:

Regardless of posting a sticky on this subject, we'll continue to get the same. It's the nature of the internet. People don't read, they scan. We're all guilty of it because we have so many choices and not enough time. I'm certain the majority of users appreciate your help, but as in human nature there will always be exceptions.



That one will be deleted. Here are some examples how we scan the internet(and this site) and don't read completely. Some off subject questions I get over the phone. Where people get some of these ideas is beyond me.

- Do you sell painted risers?
- Do you sell a driveway sealer?
- Where are your stores in Southern California? This is often asked. Some think we're a national chain.
- I want to place an order for some Pergo.
- Some actually think we're the manufacturer. "I found you on the internet and have problems with my floors"
- Where are you located?
- Do you ship to California?

The list goes on..

The list goes on.

I feel you, some, probally most are understanding and value the FREE info they are given but the ones who try to blame the "industry" as crap get on my nerves as well. I think people in general have this illusion that hardwood flooring is made from furniture grade lumber, it will never wear out , it's bulletproof and with an hour long study session on a message board any monkey with a hammer can install / finish wood flooring. I would say with the ten or so regular posters on the baord equates to several lifetimes of experince and knowhow. Some people will always look for someone to point the finger at, just this morning I had a customer of mine call about a cupped floor he has been having issues with. I call the installer and ask him about the job and he proceeds to tell me the guy has two sump pumps in the crawlspace with 3-4 inches of standing water around the foundation wall. Well Duh you think that might have something to do with it? It's hard to tell a man after he spends that kind of money on a wood floor that it's his problem. I probally have burnt a good bridge just by being upfront and honest but sometimes it the way its got to be..

I was rolling my eyes a bit on the high heels one ... (see?)

One particular 'red flag' I listen for and have taught my salesman to listen for is "oh ... we've never LIVED on wood floors before, and now that we're building our dream home, we just gotta have some for ourselves" well, you get the picture. For some reson, those are the ones that stretch my patience to the brink. To me, that statement is a sure sign indicator that thier expectations are gonna be a bit high, and some things are gonna need to be discussed WAY up front.

With that in mind, has anyone here ever been told the definition of STATUS?

That is when someone buys things they can't afford to impress people they don't even like.......

Gary, I am sure that the dent post was the one that broke the camels back. You could see the progression of that post in which the owner refused to accept the fact that the issue falls solely on his shoulders. I think what homeowners fail to grasp is that they are responsible for their floors after install. If their dishwasher breaks and floods the floor am I at fault? Even if I neglected to tell them? The answer is simply no. So then why would I be at fault when someone who I don’t even know comes in to their house and walks on their floor with a defective shoe thus damaging the floor. Simply blaming it in the installer, sales person etc. does not negate the fact that these things are a. common knowledge and b. listed in the manufactures warrantee as exclusions. If a customer does not read the warrantee then it is not on the installer or floor shop, but rather it is on the customer.

In saying that though, we must understand the mindset of the customer. Here sets a person who has literally seen thousands of dollars that they spent damaged. It is understandable that they at first refuse to accept that there is not a culpable party. If something goes wrong we are programmed to seek out someone to blame. We all do it, just some of us accept it when there is not anyone to blame. It is a horrible realization to arrive at when a client realizes that the financial burden of repairs will fall on them; resistance is understandable to a point.

As for professional opinion, I could not agree more. Some of these individuals come on the board and after professing that they don’t know how to install floors, they want to argue with the pros about the advice they receive. Again though, I try to attribute this to wanting to save money and looking for a solution that best meets their needs. Some individuals just don’t accept cheap and good being mutually exclusive and push the issue too far.

The last note on the subject that I would like to make is that I believe some individuals come on the board to build up an arsenal against an installer / salesperson or manufacturer. As professionals we have to be conscious of this and while trying to help someone fix their problem not put someone who is not at fault in a sling by being sympathetic and giving them the answer they want to hear. Gary, you where spot on in recommending that the lady seeks recourse with her insurance company and the advice on sanding was the most affordable route for her to rectify the problem. If those solutions do not suit her fancy then that is her baggage to deal with and I commend you guys for confronting her and not letting her push her agenda and use it as fodder against an innocent party. I am not saying that that was her agenda, but the possibility is there.

All great responses and replies guys! It helps knowing that there are others who notice and share an opinion. I guess sometimes things bug me more than others

LOL!!!


You think it is bad here, try one of the DIY sites, and they messed up the DIY thing, and are trying to find the easy way out, They will go off on you in PM messages, after you tell them in the thread, it must be totally replace, or redone. They are trying to save cash by doing it themselves, and don't understand it just cost them 4 times as much, now then if they would have hired a pro.

Maybe this is a time for my first reply.

My buddy and I are starting up floor installation company. Tired of working for others.

THis forum is a daily reading for me and find all the topics a learning experience. All contributers here handle themselves excellent and are very knowlegable.

Thank you very much for the time that you have spent here and hope we can become as good as you guys are at working with floors.

Keith

welcome Keith

Very sharp observation. I'm afraid I may have played party to this recently with the person who posted a few picture links of thier floor that had a few lap marks in the finish. ( http://www.hardwoodinstaller.com/hardwo ... ght=resand & http://www.hardwoodinstaller.com/hardwo ... highlight= & http://www.hardwoodinstaller.com/hardwo ... highlight= )They seemed very relentless and posted thier topic on at least three of our topic areas. Looking back at the thread I participated in I fear that I gave them the "ammo" they needed to crucify some guy trying his best to make a living. Somewhere during the thread I was convicted when a couple of us (Steve Waters and Ray Darrah) mentioned that the guy at least kept attempting to make it right and gave a slight insinuation that this home owner was simply looking for a cross-town bus to toss this guy under. If he ever comes across this site and reads what I said I hope he forgives me.

Will,

I think at one point or another, we've all been guilty of that. Critising another tradesman's work from afar from a description or picture. It's easy to become jaded and think we never make mistakes or use bad judgement.
Sometimes, it's very clear when a contractor/installer failed to follow industry standards and the job blows up in their face. Like the wide plank solid maple floor over concrete with no vapor barrier. We know you just can't do that. But other times, an installer could be struggling with a situation we're not aware of and the homeowner is attempting to take advantage. That's when we need to be careful not to judge too quickly. That's why I often recommend to homeowners who have a problem with the work to discuss it with the salesman or installer and try and find a solution. The times I get annoyed at companies is when they refuse to respond or take responsibility for their actions and decisions and ignore the customer after they got paid.
Yep, we need to be careful with our recommendations and replies. It could really hurt someone that doesn't deserve it.

Amen to that. I believe in being cautious... and try to get all the facts out on the table.

If they live in Chicago it's easier .