we are about to use millstone traditional series hickory engineered floor. our alternative is armstrong's rural living series hickory. i have seen online criticism of armstrong for not standing behind some of their products. i have not found that for millstone. we think the millstone product is better made and a better color. has anyone used either of these products or learned anything about either company?

Well there seems to be hundreds of people like millstone in CA. They set up by a place warehouse and a website and sell cheap flooring direct to the consumer. Id check them out real well, you think armstrong is bad about standing behind their products try filing a claim to a company in China.

Frankly if the installer follows the mfg's guidelines carefully it seldom matters what the wood is! Even exotics do well in arid areas if they follow carefully the mfg's. installation instructions. 80% of the time it is installation error, 15% environmental, and 5% mfg. Mfg knows their product better than anyone even the NWFA states this. Most sellers of wood floors have no clue and depend on the installer expertise. Most installers, at least in my area, cannot answer any of the questions listed below that I tell clients to ask before installation. If they can then proceed to use them if not I hope you enjoy playing Russian roulette as that will be what you are doing!


Short test to determine an installer’s knowledge of what is necessary to install hardwood floors.

1. What is the requirement that requires flattening concrete or wood sub floors before installing a hardwood floor.

2. At what moisture content in a concrete floor should you not attempt to install a hardwood floor.

3. What is the maximum moisture content of the subfloor allowed to install a hardwood floor over plywood or OSB.

4. What is the percentage of moisture content between the subfloor and 2 ¼” hardwood that is allowed.

5. What is the percentage of moisture content between the subfloor and 3” or wider hardwood that is allowed.

6. How do you acclimate hardwood?

7. What happens if the hardwood is installed with excessive moisture content.

8. What happens if the hardwood is installed with too low a moisture content.

9. How would you install hardwood over lightweight concrete?

10. What would you do if the moisture content of the hardwood was too high?

11. What would you do if the moisture content of the hardwood was too low?

12. If the subfloor has asphalt adhesive residual present what should you do?

13. What must be done if there are high spots on the concrete or plywood floor?

14. What moisture meters do you use:

a. On concrete
b. On plywood

15. What determines the expansion gap left around the room?

16. Besides moisture tests what other test should be done on concrete floors?

These are just a few questions any hardwood installer should be able to answer call me about consulting in this regard.

And of course follow all NWFA & Mfg guidelines that are in every box or available these days from mfg's website.

We install 3,000 to 4,000 square feet per week and have not had to replace a job yet adhering to the above rules.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention acclimating the hardwood is not letting it sit in the home for any period of time and then slapping it on the floor. When you think it is acclimated get out the moisture meters and prove it!
Biggest reason for failure in my opinion. If they do not possess moisture meters for concrete and wood find an installer that does and can answer the questions in the previous post. You will be a happy client then.

Nice summary and thoughts JD!

I wonder if that Armstrong product comes from China too?

It may not be Armstrong but perhaps the dealer you buy from?

Excellent thought provoking insights.

I'd also add, Whats your zones typical moisture spread?

My question/s would be, Why are you buying a species thats native to the states that got shipped back and forth across the ocean to be manufactured?

Are they manufacturing to ANSI/HPVA HP-1-2009 Standards?
http://columbiaforestproducts.com/Gradi ... /Standards

If not run away. I've called numerous so called tech depts from foreign manufacturers on this and none will put it in writing that I know of. There are many U.S. manufacturers that have this in writing on their literature.

And; Are their relative humidity requirements tied to their warranty? And if so in what manner? If they will deny a claim due to delamination in a low humidity then they are not manufacturing properly. Splits checks will always be allowed in low humidity but delamination of the plys is a manufacturing issue. Many of these manufacturers will deny a claim if their wood delaminates.

Call the tech department and ask them, if they have one. Usually it is some person who has been hired to help them deny claims.

How many of you have been in a manufacturing plant? The wood goes through the production line at a blazing speed something like 20000 sf per 8 hour shift per line. If you think everything they make is correct then why all the cabin grade/off fall products? the first step to a successful installation is a qualified contractor the second is a quality product by a reputable company. Ive seen many floors that have failed due to cheap/ poor construction and finishes. Ive also seen a ton of product to get by qc that shouldnt have and made it into the box. I agree that probably 75% or more installations never take moisture readings or if they do they dont do them correctly. If I were manufacturing flooring I would require the people to give the readings with photo documentation to register their warranty. Id require readings of the wood floor itself and the subfloor both top and bottom. I also would have a disclaimer printed on the front of every box, inspect flooring prior to installation, moisture testing is absolutely Required! No exceptions, then print a m/c zone chart right next to it.

I've been in three (all unfinished) and quite frankly thought to myself "how can they make any money (one moulder) and keep this place running?" No kidding! Definitely smaller operators. I looked at it this way.

Well, I've been here for 90 minutes and they've manufactured what looks to be a half a pallet. Okay, let's say that's 400 square feet and maybe they gross 50 cents a square foot? Ten employees running around, massive amounts of power used and they've grossed $200.

Millwood- Kevin knows them
Goodwin Heart Pine
That place Dan Schultz (inspector) worked for in the Ozarks...since closed down.

Maybe you can fill in some blanks Kevin. It just didn't look like a money maker to me except Goodwin where they can get away with selling at double digit square foot prices.

Guess. I got off the subject, but I always wondered.

LOL, your title sounds like an oxymoron (i.e. high end Chinese) - not sure it really exists.

I'll just add my 2 cents on Armstrong as a company. Overall, they are one of the best and do tend to stand behind their product moreso than virtually any company. I had a customer who told me she would only use Armstrong because 20 yrs ago, they completely replaced her vinyl floors for her. I had one time where there was an issue that was clearly caused by the homeowner and not a manufacturer defect and Armstrong was willing to replace it. Out of all the ones we've worked with, they have been the easiest to help out when there have been issues of any sort (some of those issues were simply shipping issues). I don't mean that they have more issues than others...I'd say about the same. But, out of all of them, they are the best at addressing issues.

That being said, I do not have specific experience with the 2 items at hand.

Debbie Gartner aka The Flooring Girl
http://TheFlooringGirl.com
Westchester County