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 Post subject: Lumber Liquidators 'Complaints
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:55 pm 
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My name is Jim Decker, I am an NWFA Ceritified Hardwood Inspector. I have inspected many floors from Lumber Liquidators. I have seen many instances of overwood, crook and mis-milling. I have spoken to their head of installation services regarding many times and LL has on their website Flooring 101 which is routinely ignored not their fault. They have a lot of problems as they sell a lot of solid hardwood which is not as forgiving as engineered floors.
Typically I find contractors installing solid wood over concrete utilizing OSB, not recommended by any mfg, not fastening it correctly, not following the nailing schedule stated, not covering concrete with moisture retarding material and a host of such problems NOT LL fault.
There store personnel cannot accurately advise their customers regarding installation and its care and maintenance. I have seen stacks of solid hardwood palletized outside in 100 degree weather Sooo if an installer takes it and puts it right down it will most certainly buckle as soon as moisture content increases. It should have been acclimated in the house until the moisture content reads between 6% to 9%. BUT now we are suggesting installers use moisture meters, Humm for the most part not in El Paso. Conversely installing wood at too high a moisture content will most certainly insure gaps sometime the following winter.
Then there is the matter of insuring clients are made aware of mfg requirements of 60 to 80 degree temp and 35% to 55% relative humidity levels year around.
All complaints I investigated never got this information.
Does some of their products have overwood, crook and mis-milling issues? Certainly, as do most mfg's why do you think they state that 5% of any mfg's product , no matter how good they are, states they will reimburse you for any pieces that are outside manufacturing tolerances as specified by NWFA/NOMFA solid wood standards.
Finally their, and all mfg's, instructions state the installer and homeowner are responsible for not using bad pieces. Set them aside and when they exceed the 5% they say is unusable they will replace any amount in excess of 5% with usable pieces.
Now I am not a fan of LL due to the reasons listed above, BUT 80% of the time it is installers not following their instructions that cause the most problems.
15% homeowners who do not adhere to mfg's warranty instructions and realistically 5% are the mfg's fault.

Oh yeah last but not least all mfg's state if you do install unsatisfactory wood, installation is acceptance and they will do nothing once that occurs. It is in all Terms and conditions of installation in every box.

Now having said that there any lots of mfg's who do a better job than others BUT hard for a first time client to discern who they are precisely. Do business with someone who advised you correctly and has their own installers. When you pay the man selling it he has to make sure they do it properly or he won't get paid. And as 75% of most jobs are materials you can rest assured it will be done correctly. Don't look for a cheap deal on installation as most installer per se don't have anything you can sue them for. So don't waste money on lawyers when your $25,000, or evern $4,000 job goes south. Seen it happen too many times.

Caveat emptor ( /ˌkæviːɑːt ˈɛmptɔr/) is Latin for "Let the buyer beware"[1] (from caveat, "may he beware", the subjunctive of cavere, "to beware" + emptor, "buyer"). Dictionary explanation still good advice today. If it sounds too good to be true it probably isn't true.


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Amish made hardwood

 Post subject: Re: Lumber Liquidators 'Complaints
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:33 am 
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Right on target Jim!

"Now having said that there any lots of mfg's who do a better job than others"

Yea, it's all about being informed. Look at some of the better manufacturers; Kahrs, Lauzon, Mirage, and others I may not be as familiar with. They're sold through dealers that definitely keep a better eye on who is doing the work. Beats finding someone on Craigslist who may have no idea what's going on. Some people should be advised who these guys have worked for and make some calls.

LL does have problems with ill informed management. Although I've only been in a half dozen of their stores I would safely say one actually had a good background in the business of hardwood floors. The others seemed to be hired on their marketing talents more than anything.

Thanks for chiming in. Let's hope the board stays up this time without crashing.


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 Post subject: Re: Lumber Liquidators 'Complaints
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:52 pm 
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That is a great post!


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 Post subject: Re: Lumber Liquidators 'Complaints
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:51 pm 
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Location: Tucson AZ
Hey, I advertise on CL! :P I bet there's probably zero installers with any type of wood meter on there, one reason I advertise on there. And it's free. I bet there are zero installers on there who have taken a course from the NWFA like me. Or any who can explain what a CSP-2 or CSP-3 is or what it looks like.

I also do Wagner Rh tests and CaCl, the latter if needed.

Nothing wrong with advertising on CL. I pick up quite a few jobs on there. I just don't like working for your box store or carpet retailer.

I've spoken to LL guys numerous times and installed their wood and bamboo with no problems as well. But one has to be careful and acclimate, test and cull out the krap. Most of those LL guys are so young they obviously have zero hands on experience, as like many NWFA inspectors. :lol: I don't expect them to tell me how to install the wood, or have them tell the consumer how to. And in turn I will not tell them how to sell wood. :P

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Top Floor Installation Co.
Tucson, Arizona
Floor Repairs and Installation in Tucson, Az
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com


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 Post subject: Re: Lumber Liquidators 'Complaints
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:03 pm 
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In my mother's case, she contracted both the flooring product and the installation service from Lumber Liquidators. So, discussion putting problems onto third parties does not apply to her situation. Rather, it is directly with Lumber Liquidators and their gross mismanagement in the field, from their local store and at corporate.

Read on...

Lumber Liquidators (LL) is establishing itself in San Antonio, TX. My mother in her 70's bought the flooring product and installation service from them in October 2013. Family helped her move furniture in her modest sized home so work could begin. LL told her it would be about a "week." Work began in November 2013. Emphasis, "last year."

Since then: flooring was installed one way in one room, another way in another room and when the the two meet...well, they don't. Different work crews. Theft of items, e.g. tools from her home. Damage to walls and other surfaces.

Though retired, she works part-time and has often re-configured her schedule to ensure she's there only to have workers not show up. Picture a 70 year old having to navigate or crawl over furniture for four months. Ridiculous.

The field manager has misrepresented facts to corporate about what's going on. She has emailed and telephoned trying to engage corporate.

I got engaged and conferenced called her in with a representative at their corporate Virginia office who said he'd work with us and since then he's nowhere to be found. In between, he put it back onto the field manager, a problem in the first place.

I could go on. Hire a lawyer? That takes money. Money she nor I have. So, I've contacted Tom Sullivan, LL's founder via their corporate email solution, her local Eyewitness news team (KENS 5), and the Better Business Bureau. Any thought you have would be appreciated.

Back to this discussion string:
So, I'm letting you guys know that she didn't attempt to have a family member, or hire a third party, as this discussion string discusses. Rather, she contracted the product and installation through LL and still the work is screwed up.

I'd appreciate any advice you have for her/us to get this resolved?

Frankly, after four months, I think she should be reimbursed for the product, labor, damages and the items missing from her home. What is standard or common in these types of situations?

Thank you and all the best.
G


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 Post subject: Re: Lumber Liquidators 'Complaints
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:12 pm 
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unofrtunately nothning will happen without the help of an attorney..If nothing else you did worked then nothing will work except for that..and even then maybe nothing.

it would probably be cheaper to hire A reputable contractor/installer and pay them to correct the issues or at least make it look better.

Dependent on the amount spent she could go Small Claims herself..with pictures, receipts and any other evidence..

A proposal form a contractor with corrective prices and maybe even a certified flooring inspection report..

will probably be a slam dunk..

only thing is you can only sue for $3000 so if she is over that, she may have to leave some on the table..but maybe it will equate attorneys fees etc..and can at least get $3000 back.

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James Hernandez
All Flortec Inc, West Milford, NJ

http://www.flortechardwood.net


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 Post subject: Re: Lumber Liquidators 'Complaints
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:19 am 
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Location: Austin
Marty Hammond and myself, are the two NWFA certified Professionals that service the San Antonio area, for inspections.

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