Amish made hardwood

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 Post subject: Re: Not enough staples
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:40 pm 
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FWIW, before you file any complaints decide what would be acceptable remedy(s) as any agency or department you file a complaint with is going to ask you what you want. Sit down with your wife and talk this over. The agency personnel aren't going to know anything about flooring installation or subfloor preparation.....they will just be getting the installer's and maybe the inspector's attention and presenting your complaints and desired remedy(s) to them. Details are good as they avoid the people acting on your behalf from making erroneous assumptions.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough staples
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:49 pm 
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The inspector says give the installer a chance to make it right and he said he would amend his report if the installer does not do what is right.


Legally your supposed to give the installer the chance to fix it. But I don't get the part about amending the report. Never heard of that. Either its right or it isn't.

Dalton and those inspection certification institutions are churning out lots of unqualified inspectors. Many have never installed a wood floor in their life.

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Stephen Perrera
Top Floor Installation Co.
Tucson, Arizona
Floor Repairs and Installation in Tucson, Az
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough staples
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:40 am 
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Just wanted to give an update. Inspector has amended his report and it now says
"Based on the findings performed by the homeowner and NWFA Installation guidelines, the discussions at time of inspection are not relevant. The floors overall are insufficiently fastened and improperly fastened in an excessive amount of areas. In order to perform as intended and able to take proper sanding/finishing, face nailing repairs are not an option and the floors should be removed and replaced. Before a new floor is installed, sub floor repairs are likely necessary from the top where movement is noted and soundness is insufficient and from underneath in the unfinished part of the basement were joist/sub floor connection need shored up. "

The installer has not seen the amendment, the installer is now going to hire his own inspector. I asked why another inspector was needed and if he did not believe my findings of where boards were missing nails, he could come over and we can check it with a magnet together or pull up boards. He refused and said he wanted to have his own inspector. My gut tells me he is stalling for time or hiring an unscrupulous inspector. My inspector advised I try to insist they were NWFA certified and so far the installer will not even tell me who it is. My gut also tells me I should quit trying to be so nice and to go ahead and file in small claims court and start hitting him on the BBB, Dept of Commerce and Insurance, his licensing company that certified him as a hardwood installer, and on Angie's list and Home Advisor where he advertises and uses their services. There is a teeny tiny small part of me that says they are struggling swallowing the loss and will do what is right in the end and for me to hold off on firing with both barrels.

I still would allow them to do their inspection, they will find the same thing if they are honest.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough staples
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:57 am 
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Bucky wrote:
Just wanted to give an update. Inspector has amended his report and it now says
"Based on the findings performed by the homeowner and NWFA Installation guidelines, the discussions at time of inspection are not relevant. The floors overall are insufficiently fastened and improperly fastened in an excessive amount of areas. In order to perform as intended and able to take proper sanding/finishing, face nailing repairs are not an option and the floors should be removed and replaced. Before a new floor is installed, sub floor repairs are likely necessary from the top where movement is noted and soundness is insufficient and from underneath in the unfinished part of the basement were joist/sub floor connection need shored up. "

The installer has not seen the amendment, the installer is now going to hire his own inspector. I asked why another inspector was needed and if he did not believe my findings of where boards were missing nails, he could come over and we can check it with a magnet together or pull up boards. He refused and said he wanted to have his own inspector. My gut tells me he is stalling for time or hiring an unscrupulous inspector. My inspector advised I try to insist they were NWFA certified and so far the installer will not even tell me who it is. My gut also tells me I should quit trying to be so nice and to go ahead and file in small claims court and start hitting him on the BBB, Dept of Commerce and Insurance, his licensing company that certified him as a hardwood installer, and on Angie's list and Home Advisor where he advertises and uses their services. There is a teeny tiny small part of me that says they are struggling swallowing the loss and will do what is right in the end and for me to hold off on firing with both barrels.

I still would allow them to do their inspection, they will find the same thing if they are honest.


Personally, I wouldn't take any action with small claims, BBB, licensing company, etc until the installer has had a Reasonable amount of time to get his own inspector. Once you start playing hardball it'll be difficult to go backwards. Keep good documentation of what happens, dates, etc. and in writing if possible. Hopefully you will not need this but if and when you do you will be well prepared.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough staples
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:16 am 
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JIMMIEM wrote:
Bucky wrote:
Just wanted to give an update. Inspector has amended his report and it now says
"Based on the findings performed by the homeowner and NWFA Installation guidelines, the discussions at time of inspection are not relevant. The floors overall are insufficiently fastened and improperly fastened in an excessive amount of areas. In order to perform as intended and able to take proper sanding/finishing, face nailing repairs are not an option and the floors should be removed and replaced. Before a new floor is installed, sub floor repairs are likely necessary from the top where movement is noted and soundness is insufficient and from underneath in the unfinished part of the basement were joist/sub floor connection need shored up. "

The installer has not seen the amendment, the installer is now going to hire his own inspector. I asked why another inspector was needed and if he did not believe my findings of where boards were missing nails, he could come over and we can check it with a magnet together or pull up boards. He refused and said he wanted to have his own inspector. My gut tells me he is stalling for time or hiring an unscrupulous inspector. My inspector advised I try to insist they were NWFA certified and so far the installer will not even tell me who it is. My gut also tells me I should quit trying to be so nice and to go ahead and file in small claims court and start hitting him on the BBB, Dept of Commerce and Insurance, his licensing company that certified him as a hardwood installer, and on Angie's list and Home Advisor where he advertises and uses their services. There is a teeny tiny small part of me that says they are struggling swallowing the loss and will do what is right in the end and for me to hold off on firing with both barrels.

I still would allow them to do their inspection, they will find the same thing if they are honest.


Personally, I wouldn't take any action with small claims, BBB, licensing company, etc until the installer has had a Reasonable amount of time to get his own inspector. Once you start playing hardball it'll be difficult to go backwards. Keep good documentation of what happens, dates, etc. and in writing if possible. Hopefully you will not need this but if and when you do you will be well prepared.


Thanks, sounds like wise advice. I just have this sick feeling all of the time and right now, the pill is still in my mouth and I feel like they are trying to force it down my throat. A very uncomfortable feeling that is likely causing my fight or flight instincts to take over.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough staples
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:21 am 
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Bucky wrote:
JIMMIEM wrote:
Bucky wrote:
Just wanted to give an update. Inspector has amended his report and it now says
"Based on the findings performed by the homeowner and NWFA Installation guidelines, the discussions at time of inspection are not relevant. The floors overall are insufficiently fastened and improperly fastened in an excessive amount of areas. In order to perform as intended and able to take proper sanding/finishing, face nailing repairs are not an option and the floors should be removed and replaced. Before a new floor is installed, sub floor repairs are likely necessary from the top where movement is noted and soundness is insufficient and from underneath in the unfinished part of the basement were joist/sub floor connection need shored up. "

The installer has not seen the amendment, the installer is now going to hire his own inspector. I asked why another inspector was needed and if he did not believe my findings of where boards were missing nails, he could come over and we can check it with a magnet together or pull up boards. He refused and said he wanted to have his own inspector. My gut tells me he is stalling for time or hiring an unscrupulous inspector. My inspector advised I try to insist they were NWFA certified and so far the installer will not even tell me who it is. My gut also tells me I should quit trying to be so nice and to go ahead and file in small claims court and start hitting him on the BBB, Dept of Commerce and Insurance, his licensing company that certified him as a hardwood installer, and on Angie's list and Home Advisor where he advertises and uses their services. There is a teeny tiny small part of me that says they are struggling swallowing the loss and will do what is right in the end and for me to hold off on firing with both barrels.

I still would allow them to do their inspection, they will find the same thing if they are honest.


Personally, I wouldn't take any action with small claims, BBB, licensing company, etc until the installer has had a Reasonable amount of time to get his own inspector. Once you start playing hardball it'll be difficult to go backwards. Keep good documentation of what happens, dates, etc. and in writing if possible. Hopefully you will not need this but if and when you do you will be well prepared.


Thanks, sounds like wise advice. I just have this sick feeling all of the time and right now, the pill is still in my mouth and I feel like they are trying to force it down my throat. A very uncomfortable feeling that is likely causing my fight or flight instincts to take over.


I'm not trying to 'make light' of the situation, but try to keep things in perspective. Your inspector has made revisions which are now in your favor giving you some 'legal bite' should you need it, the installer is providing some response i.e. his own inspector. You aren't being totally stonewalled or ignored. It's a PIA nuisance problem but there are worse problems you could have. How many people in this country can even afford to install hardwood flooring of this price and quality?
I bought a new house a long time ago and spent years and a lot of $ fixing the builder's mistakes....I can relate to your situation but it could always be worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough staples
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:21 pm 
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Just wanted to give an update. The installer brought in an inspector to look at the missing fasteners. He used magnetic ball bearings and went over the places I found and confirmed ~80%-90% of the ones I found were missing. There were some that his magnets found that I could not but we still are missing several hundred fasteners. He offered to take some of the extra wood and install them into plywood using the 6d nails and to put an oak colored epoxy in the holes and finish them with a natural oak finish and see what they look like. I am trying to work with him and so I gave him the chance to do this and we will see what they look like. If they are noticeable from 5-6 feet away, I do not think I will accept it. Their inspector did not call out subfloor issues and did notice some movement but said they felt it was normal.

So, we will see what they look like on Wednesday evening, if I am not comfortable with probably 300 nail holes in the floor, we will see what happens next.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough staples
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:18 pm 
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Did the installer's inspector have any comments regarding your inspector's report? If the subfloor is properly fastened it should not have any movement....maybe normal for the type of work he does. One long term potential problem- if the subfloor has movement and the hardwood flooring is face nailed to it with the 6d nails there could be squeaks which occur when the floor or subfloor moves up and down and rubs against the nail. This may not happen but with all those face nails the odds go up. Installer's inspector seems to be singing the same song as the installer.....did you really think he would bring in an unbiased, independent inspector?


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough staples
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:59 pm 
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Okay, wanted to give an update to where things appear to be ending up. The installer's subcontractor has agreed to pull up the wood they put down and buy the replacement wood. The installer that I hired is going to get new subcontractors to install the new wood. Pulling up the wood is supposed to start this weekend and new wood will be delivered next week. While the wood is off the subfloor, I will inspect it to make sure that we identify any movement and correct it before putting in the new hardwood. I am going to ask the installer to make good on the cost of the inspector's fees and for the work the finisher did (about $2,700 total) but we have not discussed that yet.

I am going to ask the installer to use 2" staples and to follow the NWFA guidelines for staples (1"-3" at the ends and 6"-8" apart with a minimum of two staples per board).

This has not worked out good for any of us (installer I hired, his subcontractor or us) and at this point, just trying to minimize my losses. Started this journey on June 2 and it looking like early Sept before we get done. I would just be thankful if all went well with the removal, checking and repairing the subfloor and with the new installation.

Any tips on what to watch for when they remove the hardwood pieces? Is there something they need to do to prevent damage to the subfloor. Do they just pry them up? Is there any risks of damage to the subfloor when they pry up the hardwood pieces?

Thanks again for your comments and advice on our hardwood flooring installation journey.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough staples
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:21 am 
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Bucky wrote:
Okay, wanted to give an update to where things appear to be ending up. The installer's subcontractor has agreed to pull up the wood they put down and buy the replacement wood. The installer that I hired is going to get new subcontractors to install the new wood. Pulling up the wood is supposed to start this weekend and new wood will be delivered next week. While the wood is off the subfloor, I will inspect it to make sure that we identify any movement and correct it before putting in the new hardwood. I am going to ask the installer to make good on the cost of the inspector's fees and for the work the finisher did (about $2,700 total) but we have not discussed that yet.

I am going to ask the installer to use 2" staples and to follow the NWFA guidelines for staples (1"-3" at the ends and 6"-8" apart with a minimum of two staples per board).

This has not worked out good for any of us (installer I hired, his subcontractor or us) and at this point, just trying to minimize my losses. Started this journey on June 2 and it looking like early Sept before we get done. I would just be thankful if all went well with the removal, checking and repairing the subfloor and with the new installation.

Any tips on what to watch for when they remove the hardwood pieces? Is there something they need to do to prevent damage to the subfloor. Do they just pry them up? Is there any risks of damage to the subfloor when they pry up the hardwood pieces?

Thanks again for your comments and advice on our hardwood flooring installation journey.



At least things are heading in the direction you want them to.
What is your Installer's area of expertise? Is/was he an actual flooring mechanic himself or is he a sales person, etc? The reason I ask is that it has been impressed on me several times over that the General Contractor, Boss, or whatever you want to call him/her is basically 'at the mercy of the subcontractors', so to speak. The subs will make the person that has hired them look good or bad.....in your case the first installation made your Installer look not so good. Hopefully this time the Installer will pay more attention....if in fact he knows how things should be done. Probably a good idea to request that your Installer pay more attention to the subs work. You could check periodically yourself as the work progresses.....you could check the subfloor to make sure that they have added screws to stop the movement and squeaks. There should only be minor insignificant damage when they remove the existing hardwood.....if there are deep or large gouges or torn/missing sections of plywood laminate these should be filled. The subs should be taking their orders from the Installer so you may want to direct any concerns to the Installer.....if you tell a sub to do something and he follows your direction and something goes wrong then it could be a problem to go after the Installer for a remedy.
A lot of pros don't like it when a non-pro tells them how to do something.
Get the manufacturer's installation guidelines and the NOWFA guidelines and have the Installer agree to have them followed.
My many 2 cents.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough staples
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:58 am 
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[/quote]

At least things are heading in the direction you want them to.
What is your Installer's area of expertise? Is/was he an actual flooring mechanic himself or is he a sales person, etc? The reason I ask is that it has been impressed on me several times over that the General Contractor, Boss, or whatever you want to call him/her is basically 'at the mercy of the subcontractors', so to speak. The subs will make the person that has hired them look good or bad.....in your case the first installation made your Installer look not so good. Hopefully this time the Installer will pay more attention....if in fact he knows how things should be done. Probably a good idea to request that your Installer pay more attention to the subs work. You could check periodically yourself as the work progresses.....you could check the subfloor to make sure that they have added screws to stop the movement and squeaks. There should only be minor insignificant damage when they remove the existing hardwood.....if there are deep or large gouges or torn/missing sections of plywood laminate these should be filled. The subs should be taking their orders from the Installer so you may want to direct any concerns to the Installer.....if you tell a sub to do something and he follows your direction and something goes wrong then it could be a problem to go after the Installer for a remedy.
A lot of pros don't like it when a non-pro tells them how to do something.
Get the manufacturer's installation guidelines and the NOWFA guidelines and have the Installer agree to have them followed.
My many 2 cents.[/quote]


Good advice on getting the installer to give directions to the subcontractor. We tried that last time and will try again. We practically begged the installer to make sure they were installing it correctly (with specific questions like spacing of staples, installation of the subfloor, taking care not to damage the baseboards, walls and tiles) and he said these guys know what they are doing and we have had issues with all of these things. I expect this time will go better as none of us will want to go through this again. We visited the job every morning and evening during the first installation and I was not as educated as I am now.

Thanks again for your comments as well as all of the others who have commented.


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 Post subject: Re: Not enough staples
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:27 pm 
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Bucky wrote:


At least things are heading in the direction you want them to.
What is your Installer's area of expertise? Is/was he an actual flooring mechanic himself or is he a sales person, etc? The reason I ask is that it has been impressed on me several times over that the General Contractor, Boss, or whatever you want to call him/her is basically 'at the mercy of the subcontractors', so to speak. The subs will make the person that has hired them look good or bad.....in your case the first installation made your Installer look not so good. Hopefully this time the Installer will pay more attention....if in fact he knows how things should be done. Probably a good idea to request that your Installer pay more attention to the subs work. You could check periodically yourself as the work progresses.....you could check the subfloor to make sure that they have added screws to stop the movement and squeaks. There should only be minor insignificant damage when they remove the existing hardwood.....if there are deep or large gouges or torn/missing sections of plywood laminate these should be filled. The subs should be taking their orders from the Installer so you may want to direct any concerns to the Installer.....if you tell a sub to do something and he follows your direction and something goes wrong then it could be a problem to go after the Installer for a remedy.
A lot of pros don't like it when a non-pro tells them how to do something.
Get the manufacturer's installation guidelines and the NOWFA guidelines and have the Installer agree to have them followed.
My many 2 cents.[/quote]


Good advice on getting the installer to give directions to the subcontractor. We tried that last time and will try again. We practically begged the installer to make sure they were installing it correctly (with specific questions like spacing of staples, installation of the subfloor, taking care not to damage the baseboards, walls and tiles) and he said these guys know what they are doing and we have had issues with all of these things. I expect this time will go better as none of us will want to go through this again. We visited the job every morning and evening during the first installation and I was not as educated as I am now.

Thanks again for your comments as well as all of the others who have commented.[/quote]

Another situation where the subs made the Boss look bad.
Unfortunate that you had to beg the Boss to pay attention to what his workers were doing.
Quick story....my neighbor had carpet and tile replaced with solid hardwood. The workers removed (destroyed) the wood baseboards. Neighbor asked the Boss what he was going to do about the baseboards. Boss said most of the baseboard was ruined and the profile is no longer available. The profile happens to be one of the most common profiles on the market. Neighbor assumed the baseboards would be removed and replaced but nothing was stipulated in the contract. The flooring installation had some amateurish qualities to it and the neighbor and his wife were so frustrated with the mess and mistakes that were made and not cleaned up that they decided they did not want these guys back in the house and decided not to chase them for new baseboards.
Don't know if you've ever heard of Mike Holmes (Canadian builder that fixes other contractor's mistakes) but in he book he estimates that 70% on tradespeople do substandard work.
I could go on all day with the stories......will add yours to the list.


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