Does anyone know if the NWFA actually has a written guideline for installing poly film..... For Floating subfloor and solid hardwoods? Our current flooring inspector ( member of NWFA, but not licensed NWFA) tells us that there is no guideline for this..... Only pertaining to the correct thickness of the Poly ( 6 mill). He tells us that it doesn't really matter that the Poly is not overlapped, missing, and below top edge on sides. He also said that the fact that they did not acclimate the floors before install is a mute point since they left no expansion space. He said, " sometimes no acclimation actually works, but not recommended". What? Today our same home builder is installing hardwood floors in a new home with no HVAC on and no expansion space. I really don't want to have to spend more $$ on a different inspector if he is correct??? We are in $600 with this guy. So, does anyone know the real guidelines here and what should I say to this inspector? He's blowing me off everytime I try to discuss these two issues on his report.

Floating and solid have different installation guidelines. Completely different animals.

What matters more than what he says is what the manufacturer requires in their installatioin guidelines.


What? lol



How did he decern there was no expansion space at time of install?



Correct if it's engineered but still gotta be safe. Solids...forget it.



Fire him now! Wait a minute, fire them both! lol

Hey Stephen

So wait, am I stating it correctly when I say floating floor.....
It's poly, 5/8" Ply, felt, 3/4" Unfinished Red Oak? They did drive some
Nails/bolts or whatever into concrete after Ply down.

Inspector said no expansion at time of install because they have
Hardwoods touching kitchen island, with no shoe molding.... Just small
Bead of caulk. And the floor was ripped up in one area, from a prior leak, put back down
... So it's still unfinished now. And they left no expansion space there. No expansion space
Around any vertical obstructions. So I guess we don't know how much it expanded around perimeter. But the wood is smashing the Sheetrock in most areas.

Shoot I guess I will call another inspector next week. Ugh!
Why can't people do there dam jobs well here in Dallas?!!!

Floating floors are not fastened down. The plywood or underlayment may be fastened down. How did the inspector describe the install? It can only be one of three, gluedown, naildown or floating. A 3/4 engineered can be floated depending on the manufacturers milling and if they say so.

And yes, just because there is no expansion space now does not mean there wasn't any to begin with. The inspector has no idea, no way to validate that claim unless he was there at time of install.

You say poly...is that poly under the plywood?



Describe "smashing" or post a picture. Perhaps it is the plywood that moving?

I got a similar call today from a lady in Benson. Somone went in and replaced some 3" quartersawn 3/4 solid hickory after a flood and did not let the plywood underlayent dry out over a crawl space. They ran dehumidifiers in the room but what about the crawl space? duh

Stephen,
Ok, it's a nailed down. Oops. Sorry to confuse you. Well we know
That they for sure did not leave any expansion space around our kitchen island, which is
10 feet long because there is no molding to cover the space, just a small amount of caulking. And no space left around our door casings etc. And on the part that was torn
out and replaced ( when I was there at home) has no expansion space either. But you are right that I can't prove what space, if any, was left at install. But I do know that our baseboard molding is maybe 1/2" at best.

Yes the Poly film was under plywood. So concrete, plastic, plywood, felt, planks. The ply was fastened down with a compressor gun gadget.

So on our nightly family walk, we looked at that new construction down the street from our house. They finished installing the same flooring system there. No HVAC, humid because just textured walls, no expansion space anywhere. Unbelievable!!! Well not really I guess.

I'm going to call an NWFA inspector next week I guess. This is getting really expensive!

Thanks for your help!

Well your not the first one Jen. Seems to be the norm over there in Texas for some reason. They must be not able to read installation requirements although there are some manufacturers that say no acclimation is needed. I'd check the manufacturers website for installation requirements.

I'm still amazed that method of punching thousands of holes in you vapor retarder is still used.

Stephen,

This is our 4th home with hardwoods, but first home with
Concrete slab. I don't like the holes in the vapor barrier either.
How would you avoid that? Just so I have another option when they
Reinstall it or better yet, if we can just get a monetary settlement we
Could hire a different company. What VB technique should I look for or
Request?

Btw, I was able to get, in writing (email), that the VB needs to
Be overlapped 4-6" and up to top edge of floor. I'm going to try and find
Out what Brand of floor they used. Their company lists multiple brands on
Their website. Since these were done through a builder contractor they didn't
Tell us the brand/ manufacturer of the floors. Ugh

Ok
Thank you!!!!!

me thinks that the fast paced new construction combined with the bright idea of anchoring the plywood thru the vapor barrier is the problem. You need a little expansion but in your case expansion wouldnt have helped that much. Dont take this the wrong way but go hire a pro, those track built homebuilders are the worst about using cheap imported labor to pad their bottom line. Often they will get a quote from the respected outfit in town so they can charge the homeowner that rate and hire the hacks. Now if you do hire a real flooring company make sure you have a documented calcium chloride test, dont take we did it as gospel ask to see the results yourself and document. If it were me I would mvp the slab then float the plywood subfloor. BTW its pretty pointless to acclimate a wood floor until the house has a functional hvac up and running. your are suppose to acclimate to expected live in conditions, thats what most dont understand acclimation is not about time you cant put a time line on it its all realitive to m/c of the wood and the m/c of the subfloor now and what you expect it to be on average year round.

Exactly what Kevin says but I would add:

six mil plastic over the MVP4, some others like to put 15lb felt over that or the MVP4. Either way it's double protection.

You can also do a floating subfloor with 2- 3/8 layers of ply or one 3/4 in layer of ply cut into 16 inch strips and layed out staggar'd. I prefer the 2 layer system. It turns out flatter.

Also some guys here will travel to do floors if the price is right. I forgot, is your prefinished or site finished?

And as far as moisture testing goes, in cases where there has been moisture issues I do both the CaCl and the Wagner Rapid Rh test; http://www.wagnermeters.com/concretemoisture.php

I'm a big fan of Stephen's method. Two staggered layers of floating plywood is ideal over a slab. Once you put fasteners through your 6 mil plastic , you sort of ruin it. I'm also a fan of factory sealed hard wood flooring. The only mill that we have available in Connecticut is "Ten Oaks" .They dip the flooring in an oil based sealer and while more expensive, this flooring really is more stable than completely unfinished wood. And the ten oaks gets sanded and finished just like any other flooring would. I just thought I would throw that out there.

Great idea to seal up the bottom at least!

I worked on a house that had 4 thousand square feet of it installed by another contractor. THen he bought 1 bundle of non sealed to finish up the install in a small hallway. After 4 months and a season change, the hallway shrank a little bit but the rest of the flooring which was ten oaks sealed six side barely budged. The only place oyu lose the sealing oil is on the very ends when you make your end cuts.

Thank you guys for all of your input on my flooring problem!

Kevin, I agree with you about these fast paced new constructions.
The sad part is this builder, Darling Homes, is supposed to be the best.
I will make sure I see them do the CaCl test! I would rather have a monetary
Settlement for these floors, but I know that we will likely have to settle with them
Replacing them. I would rather use a different company. I have been trying to gather
Evidence against the flooring company, Southwest Carpets, for a while now. They were adamant with me that they acclimated our floors correctly. Well, last night, I watched the same flooring company install solid hardwoods in a new home with no HVAC hooked up, doors/windows open, etc... I was in the public street taking pictures of it and someone, who I guess worked for thebuilder, tried to "intimidate"me, into leaving. They were lucky I had my two kids with me at the time. whatever, I have the pictures to prove it now. LOL.

Stephen, I like your idea for the staggered double layer of Ply. I will suggest that since one of our problems too is it not being flat. And my floor was site finished. It did actually look look pretty, until about 6 months into the HVAC being on. I will check to see if the other test, Wagner, is possible here.

Paul, wow! I haven't heard about the factory sealed floors. I will look to
See if there is any available in the Dallas area. Interesting to hear your story
About the 4000 sq ft floors and hallway. We have 900 or so, here, to redo.

I have been trying to get some pictures posted for you guys to see the wonderful
Work from the flooring company, but I couldn't get them to load on here. Oh well.
I was just trying to give you guys a good laugh. Lol

Thanks again for your time!

Jennifer

Jen, either link the pics from a web storage site or load them in the Gallery and then link them from there. The picture thing here is kinda goofy.

Thanks Stephen. I'm going to upload to photobucket account. Then I'll post a link to that for you guys to see some of my lovely floors.