That contractor needs to be put out of business. It is the risk involved, when the contractor is clueless about the trade he is performing.

It's called, the price of doing business.


This is a common case of the installation contractor being pushed to get it in as fast as possible, without being in full control of his business. The General contractor is incharge of this installers business.

Go to a General contractor like that, with a release of liability, and they tell the installer to take a hike, and they find someone uneducated enough to go ahead and install it.

I love it when a General Contractor tells me, "I have never had a problem before, doing it like that." I say, "Well, you do now" This one has made up for all the others, now hasn't it?


In the old days, gaps were installed into the floor, so buckling was not a concern, later when humidity levels escalated.


With the bottom of the boards being wetter then the top(the cause for cupping), cranking up the heat may make it cup even more, as it dries out the top even more then the bottom.

I will say one thing if that floor has bukled 5-6 inches from the subfloor what is holding it down now and how is going to lay back down flat over pulled out staples?

Hugs, kisses, love and patience.

It's a basic "Great Pumpkin" situation, Charlie Brown.

This one is worth hiring an inspector. Cupping may be moisture imbalance related or compression related due to lack of expansion gapping.
The GC knew there was no air, but did the flooring contractor? I've got this feeling there is more to this story than meets the eye.
But, no matter. You hired a GC to the ALL the work and be responsible........................so the floor failed and The GC is responsible.
The reasons why the floor failed does not matter because the GC is responsible. I suggest you go after the GC and let him argue with his subcontractors.
Keep after the GC....... All you did was pay for the work. The GC hired the subs and scheduled.........

Thanks everyone, your answers are so greatly appreciated.
The GC tells me the flooring company is the best he's ever used, and has never had problems..my response is "well, here's a big one now".

The way they temporarily resolved the big bumps, 5+" for about a 4 ft length, and about 3 1/2" for a 3 ft length...(because you could not walk in those areas) > they cut out a few planks & the plywood in those spots, and replaced the maple with unfinished cedar planks just to fill in the holes. Interesting now that the cedar plank is cupping as well...

I'm definitely hiring an inspector, the cost will be well worth it.

Now, once I get this floor completely ripped out, what is a good choice for a new modern looking floor? Is there any way to use maple, maybe the narrower long strips? Should i consider a different supplier? Or should I give up on maple & use a different wood, such as bamboo?

In an unstable enviroment such as you have you really should consider either an engeneered product or if you are set on a solid look for something quartersawn in a narrower plank.

what is interesting in the last post is the fact they cut out the plywood.........

Ray,
You're right...it just dawned on me when I read yr reply. If they also cut thru the plywood to lower the bump, that means the plywood had also expanded & pulled away from the floor, so there's a problem with the plywood, right? (for the first few months of installation there were deep groans & cracking noises as the plywood pulled away from the concrete, I imagine)

I was there when they cut out the two holes, and I'm almost 100% positive that they cut thru the plywood, as they used power saws & I doubt they would have been able to just stop those at the flooring level. I also remember them telling me they 'found no evidence of moisture on the concrete' when they removed the wood. If they hadn't removed the plywood, how would they have been able to tell?
It'll be easy enough to dbl check this...just remove the two replacement planks which are nailed in loosely.

I imagine now all the plywood will have to be removed & replaced , right?

Wow, you guys have been so helpful....and I'm just getting angrier thinking about how the GC & flooring company is trying to blow this off & make me wait until March to see if the floor will settle. My guess is it never will....

I do think this is a proper/appropriate site to have inspected. The more posts made and the more we pick your brain, the more you remember.
For a floor to lift 5", or even 2", off the subfloor........... there is something wrong. One thing wrong is plank solid hardwood in a non-conditioned home and not installed to accomodate the shrink and swell of the wood in a non-air conditioned home, but a home that is heated....... The amount of shrinking and swelling with changes in seasons in this situation is huge, like 1/4" in 4'....
problems I can understand are:
1. Problem with moisture barrier.
2. Lack of acclimation of subfloor and wood to in use SUMMER conditions.
3. Improper installation. This situation, like floorgay stated, requires additional expansion between the planks to accomodate the shrink/swell.
4. lack of expansion gapping in the plywood subfloor to accomodate... wait a minute..................... stop.........................
Guys,,,,,,,,,,,, Under these conditions would this kind of installation work at all???????????? Would plywood on top of concrete with plank solid oak nailed to it, work here? I'd have to check specifications, but gut tells me this could not work.......... How do you put solid oak on top of engineered plywood and lay out the plywood subfloor that would handle the kind of shrink/swell we would expect under these environemental conditions???
On top of that;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; the vapor barrier described sounds substandard..

I think this may have been doomed before the installation was started and I think the installers were not aware of the environemental conditions of this home. The GC, in my opinion, is the main problem as he did not describe the environmental conditions and the flooring was installed during NON_Summer months, so the installers would not think about air conditioning.

Most problems are not worth hiring an inspector,,, , but this one certainly is and I wish I was close enough to do it.................... I'm really curious!!!
Ray
Florida

Inspectors in NY.

Darwin Wilson
Certifications/Services: carpet, hard surface wood, laminate, moisture testing, installation, repairs
9393 Jamestown St.
Angola, NY 14006
Phone: 716-549-4739 ? Fax 716-549-2772 / Cell 716-983-2597
E-mail: captdar@utec.net

Michael W. Lazore / Certified Carpet Corrections
Certifications/Services: carpet, commercial, wood, hard surface, installation, reburling, side match correction, steaming, repairs, installation management
25 Mercer St.
Brockport, NY 14420
Phone: 585-637-0895 / Fax: 585-637-5029
E-mail: mlazore@aol.com

JD Lewis Consulting
101 Lincoln Ave. So.
Liverpool, NY 13088
Phone: 315-727-0579 / Fax: 315-457-3866
E-mail: jlewis01@twcny.rr.com

Marie Baxter / Bruce's Carpet Service
Certifications/Services: carpet, wood, hard surface, installation, moisture testing, repair, steaming
P.O. Box 284
Bloomingburg, NY 12721
Phone: 845-733-6165 / Fax: 845-733-6166
E-mail: brucescarpet@frontiernet.net

Scott Mosher / Mosher Floor Inspections
Certifications/Services: carpet inspector, hard surface- vinyl, wood and laminates, consultation, expert witness service
Address: 203 Highland St.
Hawley, Pa. 18428
Phone: 570-226-1756 / Fax: 570-226-5192
E-mail: mosmail@ptd.net

David S. Del Mastro
Certifications/Services: Carpet, Hard Surface, Installations, Edge Flooring, Moisture Testing, Re-burling, Repairs, Spot Cleaning, Steaming, Wood Flooring
72 Chalet Drive
Mount Holly, VT 05758
Phone: 802-259-3308 / Fax: 802-259-2941
E-mail: Delmastroservice@aol.com

This is one of the jobs that no one gave ANY thought to. Didn't think about proper type of floor, environmental coditions, proper installation techniques, etc. They just took the order and laid the floor and said "We'll worry about any problems later." Had someone taken the time to ask the right questions, they would have seen that the choices made here were bound to fail. As I said before, I can't see this floor being saved. Best to get an inspector, as everyone here has recommended. Let us know the results of the inspection. It will help us know how well we are doing with our advice; whether we're correct or missing something.

Gary,
You are absolutely right. No one thought about the details and now I'm afraid they are just trying to shirk responsibility & convince me that all is ok. (I wish I could figure out how to post the photos here, the 2 big bumps are so outrageous!)
I'm in contact with 2 inspectors & waiting for quotes, I'm several hundred miles away from both, but the cost will be so worth it at this point. Of course I'll share the results with y'all cause you have been so helpful with your opinions & comments.

meanwhile this is the latest info I found out about the installation:
"Yes when we repaired the flooring we cut threw the plywood and the felt. (he means when they cut out the bumps & replaced them with planks of cedar as a temporary fix.) The flooring was toungue and groove and was nailed down to the plywood with the felt in between the flooring and the plywood. I am not sure how long the plywood was stored in the house, probably not long but it comes from lumber yard pretty dry, it is stored protected from the weather."

so now, from all I've learned here, it seems strange to me...if the floor is nailed down to the plywood, how can it possibly have any ability to expand naturally, even if there is tolerance granted alongside the wall, without pulling up the plywood as well, thereby causing the bump...
and don't most lumber yards store their wood outside, exposed to the elements, or at the least, indoors w/o HVAC?

C

Plywood is not stored outside, only green framing lumber and perhaps fencing and landscape wood. I had 3/4" subflooring delivered to me this last Monday. My moisture meter reading at that time was 9 to 10 % moisture content, usually ideal for my local. Most of the flooring I get is about 8%. So I doubt the plywood is the problem. The problem is the moisture coming up from the concrete slab, through the plywood (wood is NOT water or moisture proof) past the asphalt vapor RETARDER (read, NOT BARRIER) and into your kild dried wide plank solid maple flooring. When wood flooring gains moisture on the bottom and not the top, it cups big time, especially wide planks and especially maple. It isn't pulling the plywood up because that is attached to the concrete and the maple is pulling the fasteners loose. Expansion gaps at the perimeter are worthless in a cupping floor. Expansion spacing in the field may have helped for a short time but then the boards would still continue to curl up. Ask your installer this. Using a pin style moisture meter, what is the moisture content of the plywood NOW? I'll bet it's about 18 to 20% or more. But your inspector will check all this for you. Keep us informed.

I must say this would be a sight to see. I have taken in what everyone has posted in this thread. It's great, everyone has either opposing remedies or contradicting liability conclusions.
The question of whether 5" maple could ever sustain over a concrete slab is clearly stated on the Somerset Box, don't do it.
TO imagine a 5" plank buckled vertically 6" inches is comedic. Wouldn't that leave an inch of pure space, leaving the cursed board floating in air?
I agree with a previous comment, a 1/4 inch lift on a 4" board is a disturbing sight, especially for the floor contractor.

Good luck, there are alot of wise floor guys here so you came to the right place.

PS
IF you go with another wood floor, consider a floating or glue down over concrete. This will keep direct moisture transfer from the concrete...which is the culprit.

I had a fantastic, thorough inspector come out to my house this past weekend. He's working on the full report, but basically the conclusion was that the floor was not laid at all according to industry standards, and there is definitely a moisture problem that the installer did not address.
He also told me that the floor needs to be completely redone & that this problem would have happened with any kind of wood that would have been installed under these conditions.

and to answer jabwoodworks> yes, it would have been a sight to see a 5" plank floating in the floor.....actually, the bump was graduated across approximately 4 to 5 feet in width, with the height in the center of this bump 6" above level floor. So, essentially I had a skateboard ramp in the dead center of my living room...and the plywood it was nailed to must have risen with it, cause that was one hard growth. I wish I knew how to post photos here (i tried & failed) cause I would certainly post a few for your entertainment & analysis.