Ken, thank for you efforts in making this forum possible.

I currently moderate for Home Renivation.com, DIY-network, Bob Vila-Fixit forum, HGTV, this Old House and Lumber Liquidators Blog/Twitter. This forum and website is most informative as it targets both the Pro installer and DIY’er alike.

A wealth of information is shared here and I hope those that use it appreciate it benefits. Installation "problem solving" and "tips" shared are most valuable to the users.
Thanks again…

By the way, love the Cabin and the country scenery, relaxing…priceless!!

From what I understand this was not a "local experience",( I am not a consumer that had a "negative local experience", this eventually went national, effecting installers such as myself. If it was "local" or even the western half of the U.S....Sam would have gotten his way, and this conversation wouldn't be happening.

I'm just a layman looking in from the outside, but I assuredly would have handled this labor transition a different way. How about a little consideration for the installers that were of value to LL??? Installers that built clientele for LL over the years. Installers that ofcoarse weren't employees, but we're dedicated "company people". Installers that were professional, in every way and were an asset. Installers that helped build LL in the trenches, in numerous ways. Why didnt you ask your managers which installers to keep seperate from HSS ! ??? Instead of throwing your good people under the bus! Come on Bob, you were an installer, I'm sure a professional one, was this right?? Is this just how big corporations operate? With no regard for people? Or just LL.

Howard, thank you for your thoughts I do understand your concerns.

I have no real knowledge about the way (HSS) Home Service Store transition was implemented; this corporate decision was made to benefit our customers, nationwide. However, this idea is not unique, I’m not sure but I believe Home Depot and LOWES as well have a similar contracting structure to assist their customers. Nevertheless, there was a genuine need to address a “wild west” mentality of some installers who treated our customers unfairly. Some would not warranty their work, fail to return back for “promised” repairs or not communicate properly with customers. As I stated earlier, our customers now are extremely appreciative for this service as it provides leverage or arbitration against poor, substandard work.

As to the way the (HSS) installation transition was implemented; as a business man yourself I’m sure you agree its impossible please everyone -no matter the decision. Imagine how your reputation and work could be effected if your employees were allowed to continue abusing your customers even speaking against you or your company while cashing your paycheck! No doubt your reaction would be swift…though some employees could be disgruntled at some perceived injustice. How you addressed that problem is rightfully yours to make. It would be unfair for others to tell you how to manage your affairs, especially when it’s your company, knowing all the circumstances.

(HSS) aside…..installers should know that customers are still free to use any installer they wish (HSS) or private, just as you are free to work with (HSS) or not. Most of our “original” installers are working through (HSS) and many (HSS) installers work for both LL and their other contacts as well…. earning a very good living.

In the end, having a larger focus, it’s clear to see that Installers and Manufacturers have a vested interest in keeping the consumer happy…..

This is Lumber Liquidators commitment.

b

But Bob really, works both ways, what about all the substandard wood that goes outa there. I see lots of advertising about how great some of your products are yet I also hear alot of complaints about it from consumers and installers. So is it all reeeealy substandard work.. huh?

Re: "wild west mentality": I would say that with some bad store managers, that shouldn't have been allowed to happen. Any decent store manager/customer care could have easily mediated compromise.
No Bob, I believe it was and is all about the all mighty dollar and liabilities. The corporate world is all about appearance. But appearance can be deceiving, I know you understand.

Ofcoarse I can only relate this fact to the Las Vegas store.... Out of 6 excellent professional dedicated "original" installers, 2 signed the HSS contract and walked from it within 2 months. So your figures obviously dont include this store. I'm sorry to say for Lumber Liquidators that the present installation crews at this store are now marginal at best.

I look forward to hearing your reply to Stephen's post.

Thanks for such an informative discussion.
I'm wondering what type of hardwood floor and finish is recommended for a very dry climate.
Also, some manufacturers claim that pre-finished solid wood floors can be refinished, and I'm wondering if this is true? If so, and their finishes are harder than on-site finishes, why not go with a pre-finished solid?
Thanks!

Basement Dweller, Is it being installed in a basement? Or is that just where you hang out.

Stephen and Howard, RE; addressing substandard products.

As I stated earlier,
“if a particular product happens to have finish or milling issues, Lumber Liquidators like most Wood Floor Manufacturers have common policies and procedures in place to ensure that customers receive good product -imperfections do happen in an imperfect world. As our name implies we are a Liquidators, it’s what we do. We Liquidate quality products from many well-known Manufacturers, we also offer “ODD-LOTS” or materials that have known finish or milling imperfections -not meeting our standards- that are “clearly marked” for the customer that can be used for particular projects. Many-a-Customer or builder has benefited from discounted materials even exotics that merely need only re-finishing to produce a great floor. We even offer our OWN brands”.

Like you both, I have installed many products from Shaw, BR111, and Bruce that also had their own quality or milling issues. Some of their problems cost me considerable “downtime” financially, as well as many wasted weekends. Yet despite this, I’m not quick to express negativity as I do understand that these Companies offer quality products.

In all fairness, when the “dust settles” and the facts are revealed by Inspectors, most of the LL complaints are really issues beyond a manufacturer’s ability to control, such as; natural species characteristics, hardness or brittleness, patina, mineral streaks and calcium deposits, poor installation, even un-realistic customer expectations. However, when an Inspector finds a true manufacture related problem such as finish or milling issues exceeding predetermine standards, then manufacturers are more than willing to correct the matter. For example, Ray Darrah himself has inspected many LL flooring -providing good documentation- as to what went wrong on a particular job, whether, installer, manufacture or jobsite related. In the cases when the Inspection “finding” is against LL we learn from it, making us that much better.

I also stated
“Putting complaints into perspective, factoring in LL growth and the volume of flooring installed or received by customers, the complaints received about (installers or products) are almost nonexistent. This fact is made very evident as many are investing in LL’s growth Shares.”

Initially, I came to this forum to “test the waters” and genuinely assist a few DIY’ers with installation questions. Unfortunately, I have spent most of my efforts explaining or defending the actions of LL, therefore I’ve decided to pull out for now as I do not feel the help is welcomed. Perhaps at another time.

Keep up the good work > Hardwoodflooring.com

Well is that all the issues, I think "installer and jobsite issues" are fuzzy areas often interrelated and include problems like the lady that posted the "fusion cupping even though properly glued down". As you can see or read, supposedly the manufacture and retailer said to NOT accilamate even though it is plainly written on the website installation requirements. And the salesman did not prep the cacl test sites properly before dropping them.

What I am getting at is many manufacturers do not give out correct information and misleading information to their clients/flooring community. One example of that was I did 900 sf of the engineered virginia hardwood and it had no none nada installation specs anywhere in the boxes. I've heard this complaint from other LL consumers as well that have had issues.

Well to bad your leaving...like they say...when the going gets tough the _______ slpit.